The Community Justice Collective has released a podcast addressing some of the frequently asked legal questions that come up in the context of political organizing. This is a transcript of the first episode, which you can listen to here.
Sima Atri: This is Counsel Call. I’m Sima Atri and I’m a lawyer with the Community Justice Collective, or CJC. We provide legal support for organizing and mass movements in Toronto.
Aliya Pabani: And I’m Aliya Pabani, a podcaster who also organizes around homelessness and Palestine solidarity in the city.
SA: We started CJC as organizing kind of blew up at the beginning of COVID to provide legal support for people who are organizing in their communities. We now work with tenant unions, we work with workers, with mass movements that are organizing around a range of political issues so that we could work towards those same political goals with the legal strategy.
We’re making this podcast right now at what we would say is really heightened state scrutiny of people who are engaging in Palestinian liberation organizing. The police feel like they have carte blanche to act in ways that we generally would find egregious because of the state’s narrative that the Palestine movement is violent and hate-promoting. People might be taking their first political action, we’re getting a lot of the same questions, and also seeing the police take advantage of the fact that people don’t know their rights to then divide our movements. So we thought by setting this up as a conversation with someone who’s done political work, we could get at some of those follow-up questions and help people at least think about certain considerations as we’re thinking about the law and our rights.
AP: This is episode one, what to do if you’re contacted by police. So, the basic legal advice is you don’t have to talk to police.
SA: Yeah, I think it gets more complicated because not knowing it’s the police, you might start talking to someone. If you live in a building with roommates, someone else might let the police into your home. The police might not share truthful information in order to try to get you to talk. So anything you say to them can be used as evidence, and that’s often the reason they’re reaching out.
AP: So the idea here is, if we share some of these examples, that people can prepare.
SA: Yeah, I’ve recently been asked a lot, if I get a phone call from the police, do I have to answer the phone, and do I have to answer their questions? So back to the basic rule, no, you don’t need to speak with the police.
AP: Okay, so that works if you know it’s the police calling or if you expect a call from the police. If you do answer the phone, can you just hang up?
SA: Yeah, the police are often blocking their phone number so it is common that you wouldn’t know it’s the police calling, and honestly, the police get hung up on all the time. That isn’t abnormal.
AP: Okay, that’s good to know. So there are reasons why you don’t want to talk to the police. Is there any reason why you might want to?
SA: Yeah, if the police are calling you, it might be helpful to try to understand why you’ve received that phone call. So the three things I would try to listen for or just ask direct questions about are: is there a criminal charge against me? If you don’t want to ask that question directly, just listen to how the police are talking to you. If they say, “we want to talk to you further,” or “you’re under investigation,” that means that they don’t actually have enough evidence yet to charge you, and they’re just trying to get that evidence, either through this conversation or through other investigatory means. That’ll at least give you a sense of whether or not to expect criminal charges, which can help you then make a plan for that.
Another piece of information that’s helpful to get from the phone call is who’s investigating. So the name, the badge number, and the station the police is calling from and what they’re investigating. So, what criminal charge it’s related to. And that again, you can ask those questions specifically to the police, or just listening carefully and writing it down.
AP: Okay. And yeah, I know it’s easier said than done when you’re stressed out because you’re on
the phone with a cop. So one thing that I’ve seen done is that people will write down those questions either on your notes app or an easily accessible piece of paper so that if it does happen, you just pull it out and you can stick to those questions.
SA: Yeah. It really is best to not talk to the police. These are the only questions I would ask the police. Even pretty innocuous things can actually give them information they maybe didn’t have. Like you might end up giving them information about the fact that you actually were at the protest or something that happened at it.
I’d also say the police are trying to get you angry or trying to stress you out, like these are pretty common police tactics. They might even tell you that if you share information, you won’t be investigated. They’re allowed to lie to you. That’s not against the law for the police. And because of that, it’s actually very hard to have a strategic conversation with a cop. And that’s why the advice really is, “don’t talk to the police.”
AP: And again, the three questions just clearly state them.
SA: Am I being charged? What are my charges? And, who are you?
AP: Maybe start with “who are you?” if they don’t give you that information. But if they do, maybe, yeah, you don’t need to ask it again. So if they call you to say they’re looking for someone they know that person was associating with, what should people think about in that scenario?
SA: Yeah, I think even if they say they have something against someone you know, they’re going to release something publicly about them, any threat they’re making might just be an attempt to get information from you. So I really just wouldn’t trust what the police are telling you on a phone call.
AP: Okay. One thing I’m often wondering and that people are wondering when the cops call them is like, how do cops get people’s numbers, usually?
SA: Our personal information is pretty public right now, between how much is shared on social media, and if you are a driver, and they have your license plate. The other way they might get this information is if they’ve arrested someone else or they’ve searched through someone else’s technology, and through that seeing who they’re in conversation with and then are just trying to investigate everyone they’re in conversations with.
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SA: If the police come to your door, same logic as a phone call. You don’t need to speak with the police. You don’t need to open the door to interact with the police. You don’t need to assume there’s any reason they’re there. Just stay in your home.
AP: Okay, so that’s unless they have a warrant, but we’ll get to that in a sec. So that’s kind of another easier-said-than-done scenario.
SA: Mhm.
AP: A lot of people live with landlords, for instance, where the main entry is in the landlord’s area.
SA: Yeah. I’d say if you live with other people, or other people who have access to your front door, and you can have a conversation with them about the fact that the police might come and say that they’re investigating a crime, it would be good to just share this rights information with them as well. This is because if someone else has permission to let people into your space — so for example, another tenant or the owner of the property — and they give permission to the police, then the police now are authorized to come in.
AP: Okay, so they could just say something like, “I wish I knew where she was. Haven’t seen her in forever.” Something normal like that.
SA: There’s one exception to this rule. So the police can’t enter your home unless they have a search warrant or a specific kind of arrest warrant called a Feeney warrant. A warrant is an order from a judge that gives the police permission to come into your space even though it’s your home. They need to have shown the judge evidence to get that warrant. So it’s not actually an easy thing for the police to get. And it needs to say the word “Feeney” on it and be signed by a judge and have your information and your address on it.
If the police knock and say, “I’m here for this person,” ask them, do they have a warrant? If they have a warrant, say “I want to see the warrant.” If they say, “open the door and I’ll show you the warrant,” say, “no, please slide it under my door, put it into my mailbox,” or, if that’s not how your door works, like put the image right at your little peephole so that you can see what the warrant says. Don’t open the door to look at the warrant, but force the police to show you and prove to you they actually have that warrant before you let them in. If they have it, then if you refuse them entry, they may just break your door down to come in. So at that point, you might choose to let them in.
AP: Okay. Going back to them arriving at your door, are there conventional things that they need to do when they’re knocking at your door so that you know the difference between police coming to your door and, I don’t know, a delivery person?
SA: Police play on the fact that a lot of people are scared of refusing police information and entry into their homes. So they often will just introduce themselves and often will be very friendly in their introduction. They’ll say, “hi, I’m the police. I just have some questions to ask,” or “I just wanted to talk to someone that lives here,” so that you open your door and so that you might be disarmed into talking to them. Fundamentally, police aren’t required to identify themselves. So if you don’t know who’s at your door, just don’t open it.
AP: Okay. As I understand it, police need a warrant to enter your home, a Feeney warrant, but they can arrest you if you’re not in your house.
SA: As long as they have sufficient evidence against you, they can arrest you outside of your home without a warrant… or without a Feeney warrant. I wouldn’t assume that if they come to your home that they’ve already made the decision to lay charges against you. They might just be doing what they’re doing when they make a phone call and trying to get information from you. If you want to check that, you can contact a lawyer, and a lawyer can contact the police station to see if there are charges against you.
AP: What about asking them at the door in the same way that you would with a phone call, but doing it in a way that doesn’t identify a person who lives there? So asking, “are you here to make an arrest?” versus…
SA: Yeah —
AP: … and do they have to tell you?
SA: Yeah, in my experience, the police might not share that information with a random person at the door, but if a lawyer calls on your behalf, they’ll share that information with them.
AP: Okay. We’ve seen, especially lately, arrests where people are talking about police breaking down people’s doors.
SA: There are rules that regulate how the police can enforce a warrant. For example, they’re only allowed to enforce an arrest or a search warrant between 6 a.m. and 9 p.m., and they’re only supposed to use a reasonable amount of force. What that means is that even with a warrant, they’re supposed to knock first to allow you to open the door to them.
What the police actually do in practice can be different and has been different in the context of Palestine organizing. And for this reason, it’s important that people record the details of how the police are interacting with you so that you can then use that as part of your defense.
AP: So are you allowed to record the police?
SA: Yeah, you can record it by video, you can voice record the police interacting with you. If you get in the police’s way, then they might use that to escalate the situation. So people will try to keep a safe distance when they’re documenting what’s happening.
AP: Right.
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AP: Okay, so say they have a Feeney warrant. What are they able to do in terms of asking you questions, searching your place?
SA: So a Feeney warrant is just an arrest warrant. So the only power it gives the police is the power to arrest you for that specific charge. It doesn’t give them the power to search your apartment or to search anything around you.
When you’re under arrest, the police are able to search your body. And the reasoning for that is to make sure that there’s no weapons or evidence of the crime on you, but it doesn’t give them permission to start walking around and trying to collect further information against you. If they do that, I would ask them, “do you have a search warrant?” That would be an additional power they may have gotten from the court to do that search.
So without a search warrant, you should just say, “I don’t consent to the search,” continue to say, “I don’t consent to the search,” and you can fight about any evidence they end up collecting at your trial.
If they do have a search warrant, then they’ve been given the power to search whatever location is on that search warrant and for whatever is listed on that search warrant. So it’s still not limitless, but it can be pretty broad reaching.
AP: Is there a risk of them seeing something that’s out that gives them the right to search further? Like say there’s drug paraphernalia out, could they use that as a reason to search your place?
SA: Yeah. If the police can see it around you while you’re being arrested, and the thing they see is potentially evidence of a different crime, then they could seize it as evidence, anything that’s in a public space around you, and can use it as evidence against other people, too, who use that space.
AP: Okay. If they have a Feeney that’s related to a particular action, but then they see drug paraphernalia that kind of has nothing to do with the details of the action, can that allow them to do more looking?
SA: So seeing some other evidence doesn’t then give them the right to search your apartment. The ability to search requires a specific warrant called a search warrant that they would have had to apply for from a judge. If they see something, they might then go back and get a search warrant. So that’s a risk to consider, but anything they see doesn’t just give them that power automatically.
AP: So in a situation like that, you might want to try to keep that space very intentional in terms of what you stow away and keep lying around.
SA: And this is, again, where since many of us are living with other people in Toronto, this is information I’d share with anybody else that shares your public space, but I’d also make sure they know that unless the police have a search warrant or they consent to a search, the police can’t do a search of your apartment. So they should also know that they can refuse a search.
AP: Have you seen examples of them trying to sort of trick people into consenting to a search?
SA: The police can lie to you. So while they’re arresting you, they might say, “I’m allowed to search your apartment when you’re under arrest.” It can be complicated, what it ends up being taken as consent. You should just repeat that you don’t consent to the search to be very clear that you’re not consenting.
AP: Okay. That’s good advice.
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AP: Okay, so Sima, what would be the main thing you want people to take away from this episode?
SA: One thing that I think is really important to remember around all of the ways the police may contact people who are involved in political work is that they often are making contact to try to scare people out of continuing their political work, or to try to get information about the movement, who’s involved in it, and future plans in that movement. And so our real goal in sharing this information is for people to feel more confident in knowing they can stand up against those attempts by the police.
AP: Yeah.
SA: Yeah.
AP: And so on the next episode, we’re going to talk more about what to do when you’re under arrest. If you feel like you have the information that you need, the hope is that you could at least be more present in the situation and not be taken advantage of through that process.